|
 DC Universe [all categories]
 DC Universe Archives
 How far,? How fast? (Page 1)
|
 UBBFriend: Email This Page to Someone! This topic is 2 pages long: 1 2 |
next newest topic | next oldest topic |
| Author | Topic: How far,? How fast? |
|
James Friel Member |
posted March 25, 2003 03:36 AM
  
Most of us seem to think that DC ought to increase overall DC Universe Archive production in order to get more series into print, and also to make sure that those series that already exist are published more often (or are at least published regularly). Further, most of us seem also to believe that the market will actually support some number of DCU Archives that is greater than what we're getting now. DC, it seems, agrees with this, since we're told that we'll see 14 new DCU Archives this year, along with what has become the usual fairly large number of non-DCU volumes (Spirit, THUNDER Agents, Tor, and now Elfquest). These "other" archives seem not to be cutting into the "real" archives' sales , or at least not doing so enough to slow expansion much. So here's the Big Question: How Far Can It Go? My wildest, most optimistic fantasy, is expansion at the rate of two volumes per year until 2009, leaving us with 26 DCU volumes per year, or one every two weeks, in addition to all the other, extraneous material. I don't really think that's realistic. What does everyone think? IP: Logged |
|
vze2 Member |
posted March 25, 2003 07:24 AM
You and I have discussed this before, so I don't think you'll here anything new from me. Also, I don't have a lot of time right now, so I might post a follow-up later. I think 24 total (DCU + non-DCU) Archives is the max. I can agree on 26, but I'm still including non-DCU. There are two groups to worry about. The first are the completists. I'm going to make a very subtle distinction here. When I refer to an Archive completist, I'm referring to someone who genuinely wants everything or almost everything and therefore buys everything or almost everything. I'm not referring to someone who wants a complete set and will buy everything regardless of what it is. In my opinion, completists run out of money before they run out of Archivable material. I think these people are buying The Spirit and, if their budget allows it, T.H.U.N.D.E.R. Agents. They would likely buy many of the non-DCU Archives. I also think that they are likely to buy a large number of Masterworks. So how many Archive-like products will they buy each month? I think that the absolute max is 4. I think that 3 is more realistic. I'm basing this on how much money I have, how much I'm willing to buy, and how much money I think most others have. One of those slots is going to Marvel for the next 5 years (at which point I think that many of the completists will run out of Marvel titles that they really want). That leaves two slots. If The Spirit is done and non-DCU Archives are kept to a maximum of one per quarter, then maybe all 24 are DCU Archives. The other group buys a small number of Archives for a variety of reasons, which makes it tricky to predict how much the market will bear. First, many people are limited by budget. I'm not sure how many, but for them the market is already flooded. You also have people who buy a very small number, for instance only Superman-related, and are willing to buy many more, for example 1 Superman-related a month. However, I doubt that many completists want 12 Superman Archives taking up half the slots. I think many would rebel. In any case, Batman would eat up the rest of the slots and very few people want a Superman/Batman only line. So while the market might support 12 Superman Archives in a vacuum, I don't think it can support 12 Superman volumes in the context of the overall program. In any case, I don't think that this group can support more than 24 DCU Archives a year. Metamorpho and Metal Men fans might be dying for these volumes, but I think that the number of these people is small enough that they need the completists to help them out. I'm rushing, so I hope that was clear. I think they can expand 2 every two years, if they focus on continuing lines, rather than starting new ones, and keep non-DCU lines to a minimum. I'd love to hear more opinions, but I'm more interested in the logic behind those opinions than the actual numbers. IP: Logged |
|
chandlore New Member |
posted March 25, 2003 08:12 AM
Personally, I think die-hard collectors would welcome an increase in the number of volumes released per year. Especially when the cover price can be rendered virtually meaningless with on-line discounts of as much as 35% in some cases. If you're not paying full price you can afford more books. That being said, I think Masterworks has the potential to cut into sales dramatically. It looks like, for a time anyway, that we will be getting a new book a *week* almost. Not to mention the recent movie tie ins. Plus the fact that some of the covers are being marketed as limited and collectable so there is actually the possibility of *speculator* interest in that line. I know *I* may find the temptation hard to resist, and I don't own *any* masterworks titles nor do I read any Marvel books monthly. But there is something about making room on the shelf for the latest acquisition. Something about watching the collection accumulate. I read everything I buy, so this may even make a Marvel fan out of me. I would strongly urge DC to step up production of the Archives. For those of us who *only* buy hardcovers, we are only rewarded once a month by DC. Marvel is going to have a weekly offering. Going to the shop every week and seeing that new Marvel book is going to be hard for us to resist, and since we are rewarded more often, when the time comes that a DC and Marvel book are released at the same time and we have to choose one or the other, I am afraid DC will lose... Put it another way, I'm going to buy at least a book a week. As a result, it seems like Marvel might see more of my money. Not because I am a bigger fan of their work, but simply because they have more offerings... Jason IP: Logged |
|
roccomorocco Member |
posted March 25, 2003 08:28 AM
I would like to see at least 24 a year, plus 4 Spirit per year, plus some number of non-DC titles. I am a semi-completist, having bought everything except Teen Titans and about half the Legion (I stopped after #6, at a point wherher the Legion stories simply became boring, both then and now). I've purchased, and read, and enjoyed, everything else, except that I still need to get the second Tor. I buy the Archives because they publish stories either that I've longed to read since I was a kid -- All-Star, Shazam, The Spirit etc. -- or that I did read but didn't collect (How stupid of me!), mostly Silver Age stuff. The Archives themselves have now become a collection of their own, but I don't know that I have an urge to own every possible Archives thrown at me. I do have a yearning for much more of the Golden Age material, plus Silver Age Superman, and do fret about how all of what I want could possibly be squeezed into 24 editions per year. Here's one possibility: 1. All-Star If the total number of Archives were rounded up to 32, then that would include 4 Spirits per year plus four open slots for both DC and non-DC titles. IP: Logged |
|
BillNolan Member |
posted March 25, 2003 09:07 AM
I think there is one important factor in considering how much the re-invigorated Masterworks line will affect the "completists" who own every archive. I believe that it's likely that the type of person who has bought all the archives likely already owns most, if not all, of the existing Marvel Masterworks as well. Marvel's Masterworks production will likely have no impact on these people until late next year when new volumes may be released. Personally, I'm going to pick up a few re-issues here and there of titles I skipped the first time around because of lack of interest, but that's it. Not to mention the curious lack of extensive overlap between fans of vintage DC and fans of vintage Marvel material. - Bill IP: Logged |
|
BillNolan Member |
posted March 25, 2003 09:09 AM
And, for the record, I would support 24-26 books a year. But only because 52 probably wouldn't leave me with enough time to read them all, and they would end up taking up so much space... - Bill IP: Logged |
|
bob_r Member |
posted March 25, 2003 09:43 AM
RE: Completists While DC certainly wouldn't want to alienate a portion of their readership, they have to be wondering just how many completists are really out there. The problem is, nobody really knows. I would be willing to bet that the membership of this board skews highly completist, much higher than all archive purchasers. There are maybe 20 people that post here on a regular, ongoing basis and another bunch of 40 or 50 like me that post only once or twice a month, and then the rest. That's about 1-3 percent of the number of purchasers of an average archive depending on whether you count the 20 regulars or include the rest for a total of 60. Can't find the exact numbers at the moment, so I picked a lower bound. I think very few sold under 2000 initial orders. Dstepp had around 350 respondents to his survey, about 5% of the number of people who purchase an archive. But that's assuming everyone is a completist and that the same group of people buy every archive. Which we know isn't the case. While it may anger the completists, publishing more than 24 archives a year could increase readership of the program as a whole even taking into account the completists who would be lost. I'll use myself as an example. I think the Wonder Woman archives should be fast tracked to 1 a year, minimum. But I'll probably never buy one at all, unless I get really bored and really feel money burning a hole in my pocket. I'm not a completist, obviously. So including a regular WW might increase total readership by bringing in people who wouldn't be interested in a GA GL archive. But the data on who is buying what is really hard to come by. IP: Logged |
|
NecessaryImpurity Member |
posted March 25, 2003 12:27 PM
I don't know what the saturation point is. We might find it is 12, and after a couple of years of higher numbers, DC cuts back to one per month. We might find it is 52 (including the non-DC stuff), but it takes 25 years to get there. In my case, I can afford 1 Archive-like volume per week, but as others have noted, there is a chance that Masterworks will take up some of that, and with luck, Disney stuff too. Should the right package emerge for other old comics, I'd be interested in that, too. So even though I can afford $200 worth of Archive material per month, DC won't be getting all of that. DC might be lucky to get half when there is such a wealth of material from many sources. I think the days of the Archive completist are numbered. One thing I think DC has started to discover is that the majority of the Archive audience is selective. They buy only certain things, be it only Golden Age, or only Superman, or only suoer-heroes. They need to figure out these various audiences and cater to them. To the completist, 4 Superman-related volumes per year may seem like overkill, but to the Super-only fans, that's a book per quarter and may not seem often enough! My biggest hope is that the Disney stuff from Gemstone is a huge success. Maybe in 4 or 5 years, after DC has decided this is no fluke, they decide to tap their own library of material, and we finally get Scribbly, Sugar & Spike, Fox & Crow, and all the rest. If I were DC, I'd give this material a different dress, to separate it from the DCU material. Make it bright and cheery, in contrast to the dark and serious dress we see on the DCU titles. Push it to the Disney segment of the market, and sop up some of those dollars. IP: Logged |
|
James Friel Member |
posted March 25, 2003 01:51 PM
The demographic data in DStepp's Archives Survey is interesting, and worth studying. Of course, there's no way to know how representative it is of archive buyers as a whole, but it's the best we're going to get. It shows the majority of buyers as being selective--only around 10% of respondents are completists. Those who are not completists typically own 25 or fewer volumes--relatively few respondents have more than half but fewer than all (or nearly all) the volumes issued to date. I find this a hopeful sign for expansion, since it shows that most archives lines are doing acceptably well while appealing primarily to a segment of the market that isn't buying the stuff automatically. It also seems to indicate that (assuming--and this is a big, and crucial, assumption--that the limiting factor is lack of interest rather than lack of funds) most archive buyers would buy more volumes if more stuff that appeals to their particular interest were produced. IP: Logged |
|
chris_ccl Member |
posted March 25, 2003 01:52 PM
I own 52 Archives, all the Spirit, and I plan on getting all the THUNDER Agents. I do not, however, own any Masterworks. I do plan on getting to at least one or two by the end of the year. I am striving to be a completest and I think I'll get there soon. I budget pretty wisely and I am able to purchase mine at $35 a pop. I, of course, do better at large conventions. I don't think we'll see a saturation point anytime soon. But I think we will see some Archives go out of print. Starman, Black Canary and the first three Military Archives come to mind. 24 or 25 Archives may not be a stretch, but DC will have to be more diverse in there lines. For now I thhink that: 3 Superman's (Action, Superman and SA) 3 Batman's (Detective, Batman and SA) 1 JLA 1 All-Star (Almost done) 1 Wonder Woman (GA or SA) 4 (GA Heroes: Flash, GL and 2 picks) 5 (SA Heroes: Flash, GL, Hawkman, 2 picks) 1 Legion ---- That's 19 The rest can be divided up between 3 Spirit, 3 THUINDER Agents for atotla of 25. There is still room for Elfquest Archives, a Military Archive, All-Star #0, etc., and a yearly Slipcase, if DC wants to play around. Chris ------------------ IP: Logged |
|
James Friel Member |
posted March 25, 2003 03:45 PM
Here's how I might do it over the next few years: July-Dec 2003 (total 14): Atom 2 2004 (total 16): Dark Knight 4 Adam Strange 1 2005 (total 18): Aquaman 2 2006 (total 20): Adam Strange 2 2007 (total 22) All-Star Western 1 2008 (24 total): Adam Strange 3 2009 (total 26): All-Star Western 2 IP: Logged |
|
James Friel Member |
posted March 25, 2003 03:49 PM
I see that I listed Robin 1 in both 2008 and 2009--make the 2009 entry something like Robotman 1 or Johnny Quick 1 IP: Logged |
|
gmp Member |
posted March 25, 2003 10:57 PM
I don't really understand DC's reluctance to step up prodction. It seems like a smart business move to get the golden-age and silver-age stuff out there while there's still an audience for it. I know it's been argued that there will always be a market for this stuff, but that doesn't negate the benefit to getting it out sooner rather than later. Personally, I feel the market could easily accommadate 24 DC archives a year. If not, wouldn't it be easy enough for DC to just go back to putting out fewer? What's the harm in trying? Glenn IP: Logged |
|
James Friel Member |
posted March 26, 2003 12:45 AM
It's been stated that DC's production department is at its limit as far as volume of art reconstruction is concerned. It may well be that if and when they address whatever is causing the bottleneck, a large jump in production might be possible. If that happens, maybe we'll see more added volumes than we're expecting, not gradually but suddenly. I'm not sure that would be the best idea in marketing terms--gradually working up to the point where sales finally seem to be suffering a bit from the extra volume and then pulling back just a bit would be more my style. But if a sudden jump is what it will take to justify adding new production capacity, then I'll cheerfully buy a large number of additional volumes.  IP: Logged |
|
Joe Pacheco Member |
posted March 26, 2003 02:59 AM
I'd like to buy 3-5 Archive/Masterworks a month. I doubt that will ever happen since I am very selective about the books I buy. Right now there are only 7 DC titles I'm buying plus the Spirit Archives. Of the current archives there are maybe 3-4 titles that I'm interested in that I have yet to purchase. To make the math easy, there are now 30 titles, and I'm buying 10 of them. On a one-to-one basis, DC would have to publish over 150 books/year to reach my thesehold! IP: Logged |
|
vze2 Member |
posted March 26, 2003 06:55 AM
quote: If you don't mind my asking, which 7 and which 3-4? IP: Logged |
|
vze2 Member |
posted March 26, 2003 07:22 AM
I've read your responses, but I haven't had time to give them the attention they deserve. However, I'd like to throw out some more ideas to get your reactions. DC seems to be publishing about 40-50 monthlies (ongoing and mini) each month. That seems like a small number when you are talking about a company that has about a 40% market share. This tells me that the market is small. I think that Bob said that Superman in the Fifties and the other decade books had OK sales, but not enough to justify additional volumes. Millenium Editions seem to have sold horribly from what I've heard here. Unless fans are extremely picky (just hardcovers and just the 10 characters/creators that I like, no exceptions), I have a hard time believing that there is a lot of extra money to be obtained from the existing fan base. And let's not forget all the people who complain about the high cost of Archives. I'm not saying that there aren't many individuals who have extra money. For example, Superman-only, Batman-only, and Marvel Family-only fans might be willing to buy an Archive a month, but only for those titles. However, that doesn't mean that there are enough of those people to support a massive increase in production. I guess my question boils down to this: if there is such a huge, untapped market for high-end and apparently low-demand items, why isn't the market as a whole bigger? IP: Logged |
|
quincyjb Member |
posted March 26, 2003 09:14 AM
My feeling is that the archives are selling to an older customer base than the monthlies. The older customers have more flexibility in their spending. If DC published an additional archive each month that these customers wanted, most of these customers would be able to afford it. Most, but not all. There would certainly be some reduction in average archive sales if DC put out an extra archive each month. My gut instinct is that expanding to 24 DCU archives a year would be pushing it. Too many archive fans would not pick up their buying pace sufficiently for all the volumes to be profitable. But I wouldn't be surprised if 8 Silver Age, 8 Golden Age, and 4 other genre archives per year could sell comparably to what the current volumes sell. That's 20 volumes, six more than the number we will see this year. The relative breakeven points of archives and monthlies also comes into play. An archive breaks even by selling just a fraction of what a monthly has to sell. It's harder for a monthly to find a loyal group of 12000 repeat customers than for an archive to find 4000 one time customers. My numbers are undoubtedly off, but you get the idea. IP: Logged |
|
James Friel Member |
posted March 26, 2003 12:12 PM
quote: I agree with almost all that you say. I'm not sure how much disposable income most archive buyers have, but $50 just isn't what it used to be--kids who go out to a movie and get something to eat and drink probably routinely spend that these days. And most archive buyers are in their 30s and older. Pushing it? Yep. That's what I think DC should do. Push the market to its limit and slightly beyond to determine its real size, then draw back to just inside that limit, thereafter sending out occasional feelers to see if it's growing (it's very possible that a larger amount of available material will fuel demand). It's very possible, thiugh, that the limit is more like 20 volumes per year rather than 24 or 26, as I suggest. Let's find out. Finally, I think your point about ythe different breakeven points of monthlies and haredcovers is extremely important. IP: Logged |
|
CMCINTYRE3600 Member |
posted March 26, 2003 02:42 PM
I agree that it's good to test the boundries, but like James said below, right now they're getting these Archives out as fast as is possible for them. So it would take a pretty big investment I'd imagine to significatly boost archive production. I guess, with the current state of AOL/T-W, I don't really blame them for playing it safe right now. I just hope that the goal is to keep pushing the limits of the market, both in terms of quantity and in terms of genre and obscurity (I know I'm not the only one hoping for an Hourman Archive or two). Chris IP: Logged |
|
REKLEN Member |
posted March 26, 2003 11:26 PM
I think they are pushing it now. Most archive buyers buy monthly books. I probably pay 40-60 dollars every month for new material. I simply can't afford to buy an archive every month. I buy, one, maybe two a year, if that. Half of mine were received as Christmas gifts. Reklen IP: Logged |
|
India Ink Member |
posted March 27, 2003 01:12 AM
I'm sure if the motion picture industry realized how much money they would make off their old stock of films in video and DVD sales they would have taken better care of those film cans to begin with. I see a parallel here with the archiving of comics. Since most of the golden age is un-reprintable in its present form (according to DC's high standards for reprints--ie. not photographed from the original comics), there's a lot of work needed to restore all of these comics--or even a cherry-picked selection of these comics. But once the work is done it's presumably done for all time, and if you look down the road and expect that in twenty or thirty years you can still reprint and make money off this material, then it might be worth making the initial investment in restoration now. This could be a secondary (if not primary) reason for an increased production of archives--especially golden age volumes. Myself I expect I will one day buy a lot of these, but this year (unlike last year) sofar I haven't bought much. Even though I want an increased output, because I know it will increase the chances of getting those volumes I most want (Elongated Man, Scribbly, Lois Lane...), I doubt that I will actually buy a lot of that output. Because there's a point at which it becomes all too much--you put off buying some volumes and end up with so many volumes that you intended to buy that short of winning the lottery you're never likely to make such a huge investment. I think the optimum number is twenty-four (including everything--DC and nonDC). With that number, I see myself ending up buying one volume a month, for a total of twelve (as odds are that about half will be ones I can't live without), and then maybe an extra four of five at times when I can get a deal on volumes I've put off buying. For a total of about sixteen volumes per year, with eight remaining on the shelves indefinitely. Also once the All-Star and Spirit archives have finished their runs, and once the JLA archives have got past the mid-seventies--this will free up room in my must-buy category. What will be the next big must-buy series from DC? IP: Logged |
|
Karl40 Member |
posted March 27, 2003 01:42 AM
I think they are pushing it now. Most archive buyers buy monthly books... **************************************** I have no way of knowing, but I really wonder if that's true. I've always guessed that the majority of Archives buyers are actually between 45 and 60 years of age, who buy few or no monthlies. That's certainly true of me and my collecting friends; most of us haven't bought a comic off the rack in 30 years, but we buy GA and SA reprint collections galore. I appreciate and see value in the online Archives survey, but it's mostly the 35-and-under crowd that participates in this kinda stuff. It just seems logical to me that the 95% not captured by the survey would be comprised more of older guys strongly nostalgic for this stuff, with the cash to buy as much as DC cares to publish. Now, if only DC would give this theory a test! IP: Logged |
|
NecessaryImpurity Member |
posted March 27, 2003 02:41 AM
I'm 39 and it's been about 12 years since I bought monthlies. I buy only graphic novels and collections now, such as Archives, Sandman Library, the ABC HCs, etc. IP: Logged |
|
Joe Pacheco Member |
posted March 27, 2003 03:25 AM
quote: OK, but please don't try to convince me to pick up anything I'm not already getting. I've already gone through that on a few threads... Doom Patrol non DC Enemy Ace-I bought this on eBay and it was lost in the mail. Haven't got around to spending the refund on another copy yet. Black Hawk-for the art Wonder Woman-for the S&M and bizarre concepts. I loved the Christmas story where the tree spanks her while she's in chains. Shazam! vol 3 (tried vol. 2 but only like the Beck story) I'm excited about archives expansion as I expect to get more lines as DC moves deeper into the '60s and moves into the '70s (Jonah Hex, Batlash, SA Superman, Dick Sprang Batman, Tarzan, Lois Lane, Kamandi, Swamp Thing etc...) I'm obviously not buying the majority of the archives, so I'm a fan of increased production. I'd easily buy 2-3 of each title I buy a year. Regarding new titles, I only buy about 5 new comics a month, but I buy 2-3 non archive style trades/HC a month. IP: Logged |
This topic is 2 pages long: 1 2 All times are ET (US) | next newest topic | next oldest topic |
  |
|
Contact Us | DC Comics
Copyright © 2003 DC Comics
Powered by Infopop www.infopop.com © 2000
DC COMICS PRIVACY INFORMATION
Ultimate Bulletin Board 5.47